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Eclipse 3.0 M8 Comments

The next milestone of Eclipse 3.0 is out: M8. There are always plenty of new features to talk about, but here are a few I'll comment on:

When Eclipse starts for the first time it asks you where your workspace is or should go. Windows users don't have to set their workspace at the command line and Mac users don't have to dig into configuration files. Very nice.

The SWT people have improved the SWT Table to allow for virtual tables. As I understand it, the model data will be with the table but TableItem objects (rows) will only be created as they are needed (when the row is displayed in the UI), which is great for large tables. Seems like it will be done by M9 and I'm anxious to see if it will improve performance for tables in AudioMan, which start getting slow to load after a few hundred rows.

The new look and feel of Eclipse has been toned down a bit. Feedback on new M7 look and feel was very mixed -- people either loved it, hated it or took a while to get used to it. I'm still not used to it but I haven't used it that much yet. It didn't help that Ant support in M7 was broken and I had to go back to M6. If you think the Windows look and feel is weird, you should see it on the Mac! I'll give them a break though -- it's a work in progress. At least they are listening to their users' feedback and have responded in less than six weeks: that's the most important thing. This is why regular incremental releases and iterative development is a good thing: your customers get what they want, and quickly.

When I try to use the Ant plugin in Eclipse 3.0 M8 it is still broken out of the box. If the Ant plugin comes with the junit JAR file why can't it find the junit task without any help? Seems like basic seamless integration to me but they are taking the stance that developers will manually add junit.jar if they require it. The Ant plugin could watch for optional tasks in the build.xml file and pull the JAR files that it already has in automatically as they are required. That would be a lot more friendly. I understand the stance that they can't pull all of them in by default because it would be a waste but a little code intelligence might solve this problem.

Update 7:12 PM After reading more comments on bugs, it seems that while many people don't like the new look and feel the Eclipse UI team may be resisting either 1) a change back to the old native look and feel or 2) supporting both look and feels because either option would be a lot of work and/or complicate Eclipse. They are currently gauging support for either option with Bugzilla votes.

Probably the worst part about this new look and feel is that there was no warning of it (at least not outside of their bug repository) or solicitation of comments. If they had proposed the new look and feel before committing the resources to implementing it they may not have had to backtrack like may do now. The concerns are especially true for people already invested in the Rich Client Platform which uses the new look and feel. The decision to develop the new look and feel without input from everyone was risky -- I wouldn't blame (not that they are) the users (whether they be Eclipse developers, users of SWT, or users of RCP) for giving them something they didn't want.

Update Wed 5:55 AM: the Eclipse team responded to feedback from changes in M7 with these comments.

Posted at March 27, 2004 at 06:31 PM EST
Last updated March 27, 2004 at 06:31 PM EST
Comments

For the workspace prompting stuff, that's in WSAD 5.1

I wonder as time goes on if they will put features that they have in products you pay for into the free one. I would have thought that that's against IBM's interest, but I guess that they don't totally drive Eclipse.

» Posted by: Jim at March 29, 2004 01:19 PM

I'm using the NetBeans IDE for my Java applications. I find that it is a little ahead of Eclipse in a few important ways. It has a much better plugin structure, with plugins stored in single files which can easily be installed and used without any problems. Of great importance to me is the GUI editor, which allows developers to create GUI's in a VB like fashion. This is the only way to develop an GUI, in my opinion, as doing it by straight code is a bit of a PITA.

» Posted by: Kibbee at March 29, 2004 02:25 PM

You have troubles with Eclipse plugins? From what I have done you just have to unzip the folder into the plugin dir and then restart Eclipse...

But I agree about the GUI stuff... that's something that I need to get more experience with. But hopefully not with swing! ;-)

» Posted by: Jim at March 29, 2004 04:41 PM

Swing works quite good when you have a nice GUI editor. It's also nice for people to be able to have a GUI without having to install additional libraries (SWT).

I've had problems getting the plugins to work in Eclipse. Sometimes they just don't show up. It's kind of annoying. I'm not sure why they didn't show up. it really confused me.

» Posted by: Kibbee at March 29, 2004 05:42 PM

I agree that Eclipse's focus seems to be adding technical ability more than user friendliness. The plugins are a perfect example. Kibbie: new versions of Eclipse will support a one-file Eclipse plugin "archive". Sometimes its nice to have see all of the files though, like with SWT when you need to copy them from the plugin directory.

Eclipse has SWT GUI editors, you just have to pay for them. AFAIK there is no free GUI editor, but there's probably work starting on one. They are also making a universal GUI editing API to help this process. See:

http://www.eclipse.org/vep/

Personally I like the control that code gives when editing/building GUIs. GUI editors are sometimes too optimistic: they say a GUI will look or behave like X but actually do Y or X+Y. Then you don't trust the GUI editor.

Making a GUI in code in Visual Studio .NET is actually pretty nice -- it's not a mess. I wish Eclipse/SWT was like VS.NET in that respect. A XUL-like syntax for SWT interfaces would also be nice ... and the Eclipse team is working on this too (but who knows when it will go into production, it seems to be strictly skunk works at this point).

» Posted by: Ryan at March 29, 2004 06:42 PM

BTW, personally I don't like Swing's approach to drawing the GUI from a technical standpoint. Skinning Swing GUIs to make them look like native doesn't solve the problem either. :) The problem being: the application has to look and behave like a native Windows app from top to bottom. Why emulate this behaviour and look when you can get it for free by using native widgets?

I like SWT's native widget approach. True, the cross-platform capability isn't there yet but over time it will be.

The best thing about Swing vs SWT is that you can choose the approach that best suits you. Obviously, Swing didn't suit the Eclipse developers. I think a little competition between vendors is a good thing.

I will admit this though: Swing is still the multi-platform winner! Go Swing!

» Posted by: Ryan at March 29, 2004 06:49 PM
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